Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Edward Kelly (general)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. It appears that there is consensus WP:SOLDIER and WP:NPROF should not apply here. After that, discussion falls to WP:GNG, and no editor advances an argument that he passes there. I am happy to userfy this for someone if they'd like to keep working on finding sources to re-create in the future. Go Phightins! 10:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

John Edward Kelly (general)[edit]

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Appears not to be notable. There doesn't appear to be any reliable source that mentions him to help establish notability. Meanderingbartender (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Meanderingbartender (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Meanderingbartender (talk) 15:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Copies of citations for his DSC, SS, and DSMs can be found here: https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/6116. None of them are especially specific, but it does lead me to think there might be more out there regarding his career with the 3/378th Infantry or 95th Division. One of the DSM citations is from his time commandant of the National War College, but I suspect that was more of a retirement/end of assignment decoration. Intothat darkness 15:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: obituary in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. --Usernameunique (talk) 16:15, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I'm not seeing SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to satisfy WP:GNG. I have gone through the [[1]] and don't see him mentioned anywhere. The lack of coverage for a 3 star General is surprising, but he seems to have had a series of low-key assignments and didn't play any significant role in the Korean War, Vietnam War or Cold War. Mztourist (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak~~ Delete I didn't see anything significant, either. The obituary just mimics the assignment list already in the article, and the award citations are likewise less than informative (which is admittedly kind of unusual for a DSC). Intothat darkness 14:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I did some general digging, and there isn't anything about him in the 95th Infantry Division or 3/378th Inf. His DSC came late in the war, after the Metz campaign which is where most coverage of the 95th Division focuses. I'm just not finding enough, so the weak comes off. It is amazing he managed to fly under the radar as well as he seems to have done. Intothat darkness 18:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Sorry, but I really do fail to see how a lieutenant-general who has commanded both a division and a corps and has served as commandant of the National War College cannot be notable, however much coverage he may have received. This is just common sense. Sometimes you just have to WP:IAR and use it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we had any reliable sources that confirmed any of those things then perhaps the threshold would be met, but we don't. Notability is based on significant coverage in reliable sources, if the person doesn't have that then, 3 star general or not, they're not notable. Mztourist (talk) 14:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Question Would being the commandant of the National War College merit an WP:NPROF pass? Also I have to admit the lack of coverage for this guy is somewhat bizarre, I was able to find a mention in the NYT database in a UPI writeup on generals receiving new assignments but that was it. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- GPL93, if that is equivalent to being president or chancellor, then it likely does, although there should be a source for that. TJMSmith (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. TJMSmith (talk) 17:16, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

delete strangely no mention of him here. Even if he were, WP:NPROF#6 would not apply since the college is part of the National Defense University which by itself may not pass the bar of "a major academic institution or major academic society." I think this rather falls under "Lesser administrative posts (provost, dean, department chair, etc.) are generally not sufficient to qualify under Criterion 6 alone" and to me his position looks more like head of a department. --hroest 03:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also to fall within WP:NPROF he'd have to be an Academic which he clearly isn't. Mztourist (talk) 09:47, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rather Strong Keep -- Several sources point to him being the commandant of the National War College. I think most lieutenant generals are rather notable as I think they usually have high positions of responsible at this point in rank promotion. Durindaljb (talk) 23:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide those sources. Mztourist (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Consensus is divided and the article subject should probably have better sourcing available somewhere given his rank and commands.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 07:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep/Comment Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Lieutenant Generals are considered flag/general officers? If so, they are generally considered notable according to WP:OUTCOMES. If Lieutenant Generals are considered field grade officers though, they need to show notability independent of their military rank. Bibliopole5795 (talk) 11:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Given the recent deprecation of WP:SOLDIER I don't believe that WP:OUTCOMES is relevant for AFDs, any military person must satisfy WP:GNG, flag officers are not inherently notable. Mztourist (talk) 16:23, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Create a list of commandants in National War College and redirect to National War College#Commandants? His rank cannot save him from the dreaded GNG. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:57, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are four sources listed for the article, but one of them doesn't even apply to the subject (just another officer with the same name). Two of the others are namechecks (one is a blog and the other the notice of his promotion and assignment to command the National War College), and the third is the Arlington information. The obituary noted above is likely where arlingtoncemetery.net got its information, and the lists are almost identical. He seems to have avoided both Korea and Vietnam and had a more or less unremarked (and possibly unremarkable) career. Intothat darkness 18:46, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.